Thomas R. Burns, superintendent of St. Lawrence-Lewis Board of Cooperative Educational Services, is miffed because Gov. Cuomo wants to curb spending rather than raise taxes.
He says the Governor should just raise taxes on "rich" people rather than force a bloated educational system to show some restraint in how it spends money.
"Just Tax The Rich" really means "Just Let Us Keeping Spending and Spending".
It's the same old tired mantra we hear played out in Albany, or Madison, WI, or any number of locations throughout our country when it comes to education and benefits for public employees.
Don't mean to offend you, Mr. Burns, but wake up to reality and get a clue.
New York spends more per student on education than any state in the country, yet our results are still dismal. So just how much more should we be spending?
Right now, in my school district and many others we spend as much or more per pupil K-12 than it would cost to send that same kid to SUNY Canton for one year, including tuition, room, board, and other fees!!!
Can you justify that, Mr. Burns?
Maybe if we tax the rich: the "rich", by the way, are defined as households with $200,000 a year in income. Two veteran teachers, one of whom may work a second job in the summer, will probably hit that threshold. Are they rich?
A BOCES superintendent salary also qualifies as rich, so how much more are you willing to pay, Mr. Burns?
And when will we reach a level of educational spending that is adequate? And how do we measure those results?
While I give Mr. Burns credit for studying school district consolidation, more money won't fix our broken educational system.
But real reform, re-alignment and correction of past errors will do so. Do we have the courage and the guts to embrace those changes? ... Or should we just tax the rich a little bit more?
New York State ranks in the top five in education across the country. Gov. Cuomo's remarks that we were any less were simply not accurate. While I understand your concern, please research the facts before putting such an inflammatory post on your blog. It does nothing but fuel the fire with inaccurate information.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that we need to do both. Cut spending and increase revenue. Yes, if that means the rich make some sacrifices too. As of now, they make none.
ReplyDeleteEveryone knows this but politics always says " lower taxes." Problem is it costs you more on the local level every time.
You cannot cut your way out of this mess or tax your way out. You need to do both and every reasonable person knows it.
Let's talk truth this way: the "rich" pay most of the taxes in this country, especially in NYS. All the Wall Street bonuses we hear people like Michael Moore cry about are paying for our bloated bureaucracy and wasteful government ways. It's simply a myth that "they" don't pay their fair share. Look that up, please.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have a clue as to how much the wealthy pay in taxes, but I'd be willing to bet that they don't pay as high a percentage of their income as a single person who makes 50-60 K.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't we all just have a flat tax rate, where we all pay the same percentage of our income. Is it because that it would make it harder for the rich to get away without paying their share?
The truth:
ReplyDeleteYou have been played for a fool. It is a canard the whole income tax debate. Here is the truth:
States actually augment the effects of the Bush tax plan by replacing income taxes with sales and property taxes, a move that disproportionately hurts the poor and middle classes.
You have been looking down the wrong hole. You were supposed to, and you did. They gotcha good.
Lower the rates for the rich and pass it on to everybody else in other forms. So, my friend, it is the poor and middle class that pay the most by far in this State and Country. Look it up and look deeper.
If everyone who a child in school had to pay a tax for that service, I think we would hear a lot less about tax the rich, and a lot more about cut spending.
ReplyDeleteMassenasuperblog
ReplyDeleteLet me make this as easy to understand as I can.
The tax burden in this Country is being shifted from income based to purchase and service based. The wealthy and powerful have bought the people who make the laws ( see the Koch bros. $100 million to the GOP last year as best example).
The result is the rich pay less. You can be for that system if you like, but know the truth of it all. Corporations ( like oil ) pay NO taxes. Look it up.
Whew!! Whole lotta kool-aid being sucked down by this crowd!
ReplyDeleteAs Salty points out, what about the spending? No one dared tackle my point about us spending more on K-12 than the cost at SUNY Canton. Why? Because it is impossible to defend this level of spending.
And why should the rich pay more exactly? They earned their money. Why should the feds, or the state, or the schools steal it from them to prop up a broken, failing system?
Our education is fifth best in the country? By what standards? Drop-out rates?
By far the largest portion of property tax we pay is school tax. The return on our investment is minimal when you look at our educational standing in the world. Our students are being surpassed by other, less wealthy countries that spend far less than we do.
Have any of you been given a neat little NYSUT talking point to refute that?
The S.T.A.R. program? You never talk about it? Most people in SLC pay less than half and most seniors only 10% of their school tax. A senior can earn up to $499,000 and qualify for relief. The rest is picked up the State at the tune of $4 billion each year.
ReplyDeleteThat $4 billion comes out of every bodies taxes. Money from down state mostly.
Cut spending? Of course. But there is more here.
You never respond to the facts. And the fact is the tax burden in this Country has and is being shifted to middle and working class families.
That is nice that you feel that " hard earned " millions the Hedge-fund operator makes betting your oil will rise in price should be his to keep. The bonuses paid to Wall Street Financiers? Yes, they earned it sending those jobs overseas. What a swell guy.
Facts:
ReplyDeleteJan 11, 2011 Education Week released the latest EPE Research Center's latest rankings and New York received a #2 ranking overall with a grade letter of B on the following categories: Chance for success, K-12 achievement, Transition and Alignment, Assessment, Teacher Proficiency,and School Finance.
In Sept. 2010 the admittedly conservative group American Legistlative Exchange Council (ALEC) in their "Report Card on America" said NY ranked #5 in Student Performance and the Chamber of Commerce (also conservative) gave New York mostly B's in their rankings.
Fact:
I am a veteran teacher working in a nearby district and I make far from your projections. After 23 years in the same public school (and I have a Masters degree) I make just a little over $55,000 this year. If my husband were also a teacher, which he is not, our combined salaries would still fall far short of your projected $200,000.
Fact:
The Forbes 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than 150 million Americans combined.
Fact:
My family, although not wealthy by any reasonable standard, willingly pays their taxes and will happily continue to do so because taxes enable all of us to educate our children, ensure the safety of our bridges and roads, and supply medical care for the elderly and disabled.
Fact:
We do not nor will we ever hire a team of lawyers, accountants and bankers in the Cayman Islands to avoid paying our fair share.
Fact:
Many wealthy people do.
Federal and state governments cannot balance the budget on education. The working people are now shouldering the burden of the costs while the wealthy have abandoned their duty. Thankfully, there are groups like Patriotic Millionaires For Fiscal Strength who are willing to pay "their fair share."
Final Fact:
Educators are not the enemy. We spend a great deal of time raising money and donating items for Christmas baskets and student families in need, we pay for many materials for our classrooms, we pay our share of taxes. We work hard, will never receive a 25 million dollar bonus, and don't require one. Teachers don't expect that kind of remuneration to do our best; we feel "paid in full" whenever a student is successful. The bonus arrives when they run into us in the grocery stores years later and thank us for our patience and dedication. Not all remuneration comes in the form of a check.
The vast majority of teachers I have known, work tirelessly on behalf of their students and the larger community and deserve more respect than your comments allow.
Kool-aid, Mr. Gray? If I were you, I'd check your own glass first.
No one has challenged you on spending? You are targeting the wrong crowd. The schools have to live with all sorts of mandates from both the NYS legislature and the NYS ed dept. Your post is wildly inaccurate, all you had to do is check facts and you would see the per pupil spending amounts are no where close to SUNY Canton, etc. And, in spite of this fact that our schools are doing OK on per pupil, they have to deal with the 257 additional requirements that the NYS legislature has felt it necessary to add to the Federal IDEA legislation for Special Education. The schools are hostage to this as they are in danger of impartial hearings and civil rights lawsuits if they don't adhere to these additional, onerous and expensive add-ons.
ReplyDeleteMy post is wildly inaccurate?
ReplyDeleteTake the figures from the Massena Central website: 2010-2011 budget of $44,900,000 divided by the student census 2,275 gives you a per pupil expenditure of $16,180.18. Just how much does it cost to attend SUNY Canton this year? By my best calculation off their website, tuition, room, board fees is just under $16,000.
Now take an average teacher salary, divide by 180 work days. How much is that per hour?
I don't begrudge teachers a good salary and the teachers in NYS are pretty well paid. It's not exactly the underpaid Appalachia salary that Oprah would have us believe.
Please don't tell me there's no place to cut in education. It's simply beyond belief.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteYou still haven't address your inaccuracies. You said our results were "dismal" and sneeringly added that maybe we our highest placement might be in non-graduation rates, but doubted we'd do well in any other categories. Several facts have been presented that refute your comments and prove these stats aren't "NYSUT" talking points. When you're wrong, admit it.
On another point, teachers don't clock in and out for a 40 hour work week. Add to our workdays, time for planning, grading, and the assembling of materials. That also doesn't take into account the other hours we log showing up at sports events and concerts to show our students we care. A teacher simply can't show up five minutes before classes begin and walk out the door with their students when the final bell rings. That's the reality that can't be derived from your formula.
Many teachers also hold review classes and extra-credit opportunities after school-hours with no expectation of pay. So, you can't really divide our salaries by 180 days/40 hours a week and think you can come up with our worth. If you really want to know what the national or statewide average salary is BOCES can supply you with current numbers... but, they still won't tell the whole story.
No one on this post has said that there is "no place to cut education" and no one claimed to be receiving an "Appalachia salary." If you simply do five minutes of research on any of the valid educational websites (such as those listed above with the current data) they clearly state how much money is spent per pupil (on average) across each state. There is no reason to exaggerate or bring out the slide rule here and concoct some wild comparison between SUNY Canton and public schools. As the response directly above this one points out, there are many mandates that public K-12 schools must fund that SUNY Canton does not.
If you want to cut money going toward education, here's something to think about...explore why there is so much money available for technology (smart boards and all their software, updates, etc), online high school credit recovery and college degree programs, and assessments (companies that create and grade assessments and provide test-prep materials, consultants, data analysis...) There are millions of "education" dollars being diverted from the actual school districts and their students. Follow the money to find out who benefits from these dollars. I can assure you it is not the students in my district or yours.
Travel to various school districts in your area. Spend some time in the classroom, talk with teachers, aides, and administrators about some of the challenges they face. Dig deeper than the talking points on either side...
As a public official who has a solid education, you know better than to make spurious and unsubstantiated comments without having done your homework. Oprah is not an educational expert any more than Glenn Beck. You need to put "the facts" above touting the party line. You are better than that!
Agreed: State mandates are a huge problem; "mainstreaming" handicapped kids is a well-intentioned mistake in most cases; too much money is wasted on technology, turf fields and unnecessary capital improvements; there is way too much adminstration in many if not all districts; and there is the chronic problem of parental failures at home (why is a kid deemed socially ready for school when he hasn't even been potty trained?).
ReplyDeleteHowever, other anchors around the neck of education include tenure for underperforming and incompetent teachers; extremely poor results on standardized tests (including English of all subjects!!); dumbing down of the Regents system; drop-out rates (why is dropping out even an option until you're at least 18 years old?); ridiculously small class sizes; nearly inadequate opportunities for students who are better suited to technology tracts than classroom education; and I could name a few other if I took ten more minutes to do so.
This has nothing to do with the "party line," whatever the hell that means in a discussion about schools.
It has to do with responsibility. Rather than continuing defend the parts of the system that are obviously failing (tenure) perhaps teachers and NYSUT could take some of the responsibility and also admit when they are wrong and fix the parts of the system under their control.
And BOCES is part of that problem, when you look at costs and top-heavy adminstration.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteWell, we can agree on some things here, which is an improvement!
However, there are some things that we won't see eye to eye on. It is not a secret that many Republicans see destroying the union as their way to better control education. Tenure and seniority are two of their favorite complaints; however, tenure is not a guarantee of a job for life. Some of your comments sound pretty familiar and don't really apply to education as we know it around here. I guess it's the companion to the comment you made about NYSUT talking points. Perhaps, a bit unfair...
Someone had to grant that teacher tenure; and it wasn't the union. Once that person is granted tenure, however, there are valid avenues for dismissing an incompetent teacher (3020A) and just recently NYSUT agreed to an "expedited" process for teachers found to be worthy of dismissal. When an incompetent teacher remains in the classroom, there have been several accountability failures along the way.
As far as poor results in standardized tests; there's a plethora of information regarding how/why some students don't do well. Generally speaking, the results often reflect the socio-economic status of the school. In the middle level ELAs (for instance)the only accommodation allowed a disabled student is a scribe. The great thing is that despite lagging behind their peers (which would be expected due to poverty, lack of language interaction, and vocabulary deficits) many low performing students eventually do overcome their initial scores and pass the English Regents. In my district (where we have never been a school in need of improvement due to middle school ELA scores,btw) we certainly would be happier to see more students attain higher levels of competency at an earlier date. Yet, we are pleased to say that we have 94 percent of 11th grade students passing the English Regents. So, it's not always about being the first out of the gate -- it's where you finish.
About those "ridiculously small class sizes"....the smallest class I have is in the mid-20's...my colleague has 30 seniors in a room designed for 15-20 middle school students. This is far more the norm than the exception. As a matter of fact, several teachers (myself included) have been doing the job of 1 1/2 teachers due to downsizing. We are working with our administration in a good-faith attempt to meet the needs of our students, regardless of teacher layoffs. We receive no extra pay nor perks (like additional planning time.) We are not alone. There are many who are more than willing to make sacrifices to serve the needs of our students.
Well, I'd love to stick around and debate how unions have contributed to the quality of life of working men/women everywhere...but, I have papers to grade and dinner to get on the table...5:00am comes early and I need to be at my best long before the 8:00am bell rings.
Take me up on that offer - my door is always open and I'd welcome an opportunity to have you in my classroom.
Anon. 4:27 I'd love to come to your class. All you have to do is invite me.
ReplyDeleteJoseph, we can argue about the distribution of tax revenue until we croak. However, the attacks on teachers and teacher unions are a party-line issue. They are coordinated and largely financed by right-wing extremists. These unions are the largest contributors to the Democrat party, and the right-wingers would love to silence them.
ReplyDeleteI hear buffoons like Gov. Walker and Gov. Christie complaining that they need to destroy the unions in order to get rid of "bad teachers". I would find that hilarious if people didn't take them seriously. I'm not sure these governors/politicians could teach a fish how to swim. Every system of teacher evaluation is seriously flawed. There are too many intangibles at play. The performance of students can not be determined by teachers alone. If kids want to play on their Blackberries under the desk instead of paying attention, no teacher will get through to them. If parents don't encourage their children to learn, their kids probably won't learn. The social environment that a child grows up in can either be positive or negative. Anyone who thinks they are smart enough to judge teachers must have a seriously swollen ego.
I would agree that some school expenditures are wasteful. A capital expenditure proposal should be costed out. If it can't pay for itself in a fairly short period of time, we can't afford it. I am struggling to pay my taxes now, and I can't afford to pay for frivolous projects. At the same time, I can't see how larger class sizes and reduced learning resources can make our students more competitive in a global economy.
I want to be up front here. My mother is a retired teacher, and my sister-in-law is a teacher now. And a damned good one. I know that most teachers could make a lot more money in the private sector with the amount of education they need to qualify. They teach because they are committed to helping kids have a fighting chance in life. When teachers are attacked, it's personal.